Early 40s and retired. How did she do it?

Discover the inspiring journey of Jen, a woman who achieved early retirement by mastering financial discipline, leveraging support systems, and embracing her passions. Learn how intentional planning and mindset shifts can redefine your work and life balance.

In this episode: 

• Jen's humble beginnings and early academic pursuits for scholarships
• The role of financial literacy and planning in early retirement
• How working with financial advisors and deliberate saving habits transformed her life
• The importance of self-awareness, confidence-building, and communication skills
• Navigating personal passions like performance arts alongside a tech career
• Lessons on maintaining financial independence in relationships
• Real-life strategies for taking time off without risking long-term stability
• The significance of mentorship and community in career growth
• Tips for young women in tech to embrace assertiveness and leadership
• How discovering your flow and hobbies enhances overall well-being

Timestamps:
00:00 - Introduction to Jen's early life and academic goals
00:30 - Finding inspiration in Reddit communities for early retirees
01:33 - The importance of humility and communication skills in her journey
02:00 - Scholarship pursuits and college experience
03:00 - The impact of tech industry earnings in savings behaviors
03:40 - Meeting with a financial planner and planning early retirement
04:30 - Overcoming financial anxiety with professional guidance
05:00 - The role of ongoing financial advice and separate retirement accounts
05:50 - Building confidence through training and communication exercises
07:00 - How posture and presentation influence confidence
08:00 - Breaking in and progressing in tech despite initial intimidation
09:00 - Engaging in performance arts and storytelling
10:00 - The value of confidence classes and improv for professional growth
11:00 - The influence of family background and financial cycles
12:00 - Living intentionally below lifestyle creep
13:00 - Strategies for managing finances separately in relationships
14:00 - Taking a break for personal growth and creative pursuits
15:00 - The importance of work-life separation and rediscovery
16:00 - How to navigate and communicate financial independence in partnerships
17:00 - Advice for young women in tech to build confidence and seek mentors
18:00 - The importance of community and mentorship for career success
19:00 - Overcoming imposter syndrome and questioning your impact
20:00 - Embracing hobbies and passions outside of work
21:00 - The power of flow and working in alignment with personal passions
22:00 - Practical tips for, and benefits of, taking career breaks
23:00 - How to approach career changes and lifestyle experiments
24:00 - Encouragement for setting boundaries and prioritizing well-being
25:00 - The importance of honest conversations with partners about finances
26:00 - Planning and executing financial independence from early in career
27:00 - The impact of taking time off on personal growth and mental health
28:00 - Building a flexible, adaptable approach to career and finances
29:00 - The influence of early mentorship and community support
30:00 - Final advice for young people aiming for early financial freedom

Connect with Jen:

 She wishes to be anonymous.

Note: The insights shared reflect Jen's personal journey and are intended for informational purposes. Always consult a financial advisor for tailored advice.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_01 1:24

Welcome to Fiery Fams, the podcast where high achieving women build wealth, redesign their careers, and create lives with real freedom. I'm Sheena, an accredited investor, a former tech sales professional and the founder of Fiery Fams. After a decade across global SaaS, startups, and my own reinventions, I realized the most powerful thing a woman can have is optionality. So in every episode, we explore the future of work, the psychology of wealth, and the practical strategies that help women build careers and lives that evolve as fast as they do.

SPEAKER_02 2:01

Jen, I just want to say thank you so much for the time today. Obviously, um, I think we met unconventionally via me scoping out on Reddit on who are the fiery femmes and wanting to know how you got there, how you retired early. I think that's most people would love to have that achievement and would love to share it with the world in how people can get there as well.

SPEAKER_00 2:26

Yeah. I mean, for sure. I ended up like I grew up in a house that did not prioritize like finances in any way. Like it wasn't something that we ever kind of talked about. So even as a young kid, I never really thought about like saving or anything. I worked, but that just like went towards my normal expenses. And it wasn't until, you know, I went to college on a scholarship. I went to grad school and had a lot of that like paid for. And then I got involved in tech. And um, you know, I was I was in some debt when I started working, but suddenly I was making this salary that I had like never made before. I didn't even know like it was possible to like make you know that kind of salary as like a 21 or a 22-year-old. So I um, you know, I just ended up kind of saving by default because I was used to living kind of at a at a lower level. So um, and then when I got together with my husband, we went to like a financial planner as we were combining finances and they did a financial projection of like how much money we would have if we retired at a traditional age. And the number was like, you know, kind of just this crazy large number, and it made us realize that we could just continue saving more aggressively now and stop working, you know, while we still while we were much younger, so we could travel and do, you know, other things. So that's kind of the short story of like how how I ended up being able to retire early.

SPEAKER_02 3:53

And that's so good that you were able to realize that you can actually do that. And also just through the act of seeing a financial advisor. I feel like a lot of people are kind of against seeing financial advisors in, I don't know whether that's just like the internet space, but a lot of people are seem to be against it.

SPEAKER_00 4:12

Yeah, for sure. I mean, you know, it's interesting because again, my family like didn't talk about finances, and I don't know that my husband had actually been to a financial advisor before, but as we were like getting married, we had some inequality, you know, in our finances. I still had a little bit of debt, not much. I had a little bit of debt left over. And he had been working for longer than me. So we just kind of wanted to make sure we were, you know, on the same page as we bought a house and and everything. And I found it like extremely useful because I think as a when I was younger, finances made me really anxious. You know, there were times when I didn't have, you know, money to pay rent and have to like borrow it from a friend, like in grad school. So I always felt anxious around money. And so I didn't, I didn't like to like manage it or like look at it much. So having someone kind of present me with this is what your, you know, kind of spending looks like and this is what your savings looks like, like made it more accessible for me to start doing that on my own. Um, and even today I still use a financial advisor. Um, I think it's great for me, especially with like volatile markets and like other things happening. Like I know that I have a person that is kind of an expert, you know, in managing finance. And I know that I'm not, and I know that I'll freak out. So I don't, I think it's good. I think it's good for me to see a financial advisor, and I would recommend it to other people that are open to it as well.

SPEAKER_02 5:36

Yeah, I I feel the same. I actually had a meeting with our financial advisor yesterday, and it's just so good because sometimes as well, like you have this thinking mentality or view on something. And they try to, I would say, talk to you about, talk to you about it in a in a way where basically they're trying to tell you, don't do that. Yeah, like don't do that. And like again, like they challenge the way your way of thinking, and like they have facts to back it up. And yeah, it it was great. So uh I I I like that about them. Some people definitely are so against them, but I think it's up to you on like if you really need someone to help you, definitely.

SPEAKER_00 6:19

Yeah, and I would say I'll just say this. So my husband manages, we have we combine finances like as a household, but our retirement counts are still completely separately. So he self-manages, he doesn't have any desire to see, you know, to have a planner, but I I have mine, you know, with a planner. And so yeah, it just helps to make me feel more in control and like more comfortable. And I also work with I have a female financial advisor, and she's very good about kind of sharing her own thoughts about you know investment to me is like someone, you know, that's that's familiar with my background.

SPEAKER_02 6:52

So yeah, yeah, that's really handy, really handy. And Jen, I wanted to ask a few questions, but something that I always ask for the guests is like what is something that is not on your professional LinkedIn profile?

SPEAKER_00 7:07

Probably like my uh I don't really talk about like my interest in like the arts and performance on on LinkedIn. So, you know, I worked in tech, so a lot of it is very like kind of schooling and like published papers and like tech focused. Um, but on the side, you know, I've been doing some acting since I was like a small child and I've been very involved in like the comedy community since you know 2008, 18. So for several years, and it takes up a big chunk of my time. And I just, yeah, it's like my little kind of secret hideaway.

SPEAKER_02 7:39

That's crazy.

SPEAKER_00 7:40

Do you do you I I would be so scared? Yeah, I think you know, starting younger and like a male-dominated environment, I kind of had to talk myself out of like having stage fright or out of like speaking up. And this is gonna sound so dated, but you know, I started working in 2002, and my company actually offered a class called Confidence for Women. Like they which sounds awful, but it actually wasn't. It it talked about things like even how to like sit, present yourself like more confidently, and how to kind of speak off the cuff a little bit more, and you know, how to stall till you get like a real answer while you're thinking over it in your head. And I think they did a lot of improv activities there, which later I realized that that I really liked, but I kind of think it's almost this fake it till you make it uh type type situation, just learning a few techniques and then eventually, yeah, if you convince yourself you don't have stage fright, you might not have stage fright.

SPEAKER_02 8:40

That is insane. I feel like you mentioned that was it stand-up? You did stand-up, you do stand-up?

SPEAKER_00 8:47

I don't do stand-up, but I do um narrative storytelling, so telling personal stories like from my life, both like funny and not, and then I also do um improv and sketch comedy, like writing and acting. So kind of a number of different things, but not not stand-up.

SPEAKER_02 9:03

Very cool. Still, I I think that that's a scary thought to be uh yeah, in front of with all the lives in front of you. I think that's that that that's a real skill, and it would empower you in so many different aspects of your life too.

SPEAKER_00 9:16

Yeah, I would say one more thing I would add to that is I also took a Dale Carnegie like speaking class that was just geared towards women, maybe like 10 years into my uh career, my company paid for it. And with that, we met every morning, and every morning you'd have to stand up and like tell a story, you know, just like a quick story. And I think that just the routine of having to do that, even if you don't have anything to like talk about, kind of helps you get over a bit of that nervousness. Cause maybe, you know, you're talking about something you think is dumb, but you have to talk. Like you can't just stand there and not do it.

SPEAKER_02 9:51

Got it. That's so that's really good that you had that training. It's very intentional and it seeps out uh in other parts of your life as well, not just like professionally, but it's super helpful to know how to communicate properly.

SPEAKER_00 10:06

Yeah, a hundred percent. Uh especially in like the world of tech where everybody's trying to get like a warden edge wise, being able to like feel like you belong in the room and present yourself like that, I think is is really important. For sure.

SPEAKER_02 10:19

I'm gonna Google the like confidence for women, like workshops, those kind of things. Like I think it's uh super helpful. I'd like to think that I have enough already, but always good to learn more. Or like, what are those unconscious things that I do that can signal not so confident? So I'd be I'd love to know.

SPEAKER_00 10:39

Yeah, a really big one is honestly posture, like sitting up straight and kind of it's weird, like leaning like this, like leaning back, you just appear more confident than like kind of like huddled over a table. Right. You just kind of don't seem as confident when you're like kind of yeah, huddling yourself. So just making yourself bigger, you know, in a in a room, making yourself take up space helps a lot. And I think if you sit in like a room with a a number of people, you'll see the people that do that, and you'll yeah, I I feel I think you can notice that like they they seem more like they belong there than someone that kind of appears nervous or or hunched.

SPEAKER_02 11:14

Yeah, that's so true. I think um just imagining that now you would almost feel intimidated if someone's like super relaxed. Yeah. Yeah, no, that that's so good. Okay, cool, cool, cool. I think that's a great um insight for the audience for sure.

SPEAKER_00 11:31

Yeah, and I feel like hopefully over time they've changed like the title of that class to not just like appeal to women and hopefully anybody that's like new, you know, in an industry that they're not as familiar with, I think, could benefit from. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 11:45

And uh do you think that has shaped the way that you navigated work or ambition?

SPEAKER_00 11:51

I think so. I think I think early on, so I didn't have a traditional like tech background starting in tech. I mean, I I have an undergrad and like applied math. So I am like techie, but I didn't come in as like a as a programmer. And so very early on, I definitely felt intimidated by by people around me. I felt like they knew all the answers and like who am I to speak up as this like young person in the room that doesn't know what they're kind of talking about. And so early on in my career, I you know, I I did get feedback that like I uh didn't didn't talk enough. You know, nobody said like I appeared like meek or anything, but but I know what they meant. They felt like, you know, you don't always look like comfortable or or things like that. So I I do think something like that really helped me and helped to give me the the confidence to just present myself slightly differently. And, you know, I when you have like a mannerism that's a little more confident, it is true. I think I think you start to feel that way. So yeah, I think it was really good for me. And when I took the speaking class as well, I got a lot of feedback when I was done with that class about how my presentation skills increased and how I was much more kind of visible on my team and and to other teams within my company.

SPEAKER_02 13:00

And can you tell me you were doing those classes, maybe like some exercises that they were telling you during the workshops, the classes. Did you make intentional effort to practice outside of those classes?

SPEAKER_00 13:12

Yeah, I I made an effort to like do it like in my meetings. Like um, I'll just so one example, like this is this is from early on when I took like the confidence confidence for like women class. Uh at my job, one of the things you had to do uh when you're starting out is you would lead these big bug triage meetings, and they would be for bugs in software that you might not know anything about. You're just basically, you know, utilizing the room to like prioritize them in order and like that people should should work on them. And uh I feel like every day in that room, I would try to like adopt that posture and like speak like I knew what they meant, even if I didn't know what they meant. So just talking, you know, without hesitation, like reducing the number of times, you're like, and then just getting to know and remember what people work on. So you can kind of redirect if you don't know to the right person rather than like kind of pausing and looking for someone to like fill in the gap. So yeah, I actively like took the feedback I got and and the information I got from that class and like applied it immediately.

SPEAKER_02 14:12

There you go. Implementation is key. No, that's great. Well, thank you for sharing that. That's super amazing, insightful. I think a lot of people need to learn how to communicate efficiently. Um that's amazing. I I'd like to talk about I guess like your thoughts on breaking family cycles, financial situations that your family were in. Can you talk a little bit about that?

SPEAKER_00 14:38

Yeah, sure. Um, like I mentioned before, you know, I mean, I think my family, I don't know what they were classified as, probably like lower, like middle class. We didn't live in like an expensive area. I was raised by my grandparents, and so, you know, they were a bit older and didn't have like a lot of money kind of coming in. And so again, we didn't, we didn't talk about money. And like when we went grocery shopping, it would be a situation where like, you know, my grandmother would have a calculator that she'd be like adding up the prices of groceries to make sure she didn't, you know, go over the budget uh for the week. I, you know, I I don't feel like I ever like went without as a kid, but it was definitely like kind of I knew that I couldn't do all the things that like maybe my friends could do because we didn't have like the financial um resources to do that. One thing I did do was like I I got I got good grades. Like I was a I was a good student. I like following rules, I like tests. And my family hadn't even really mentioned like college to me or anything, but I just knew from my friends, like if I got better grades, I'd be more likely to maybe get a scholarship to college or or something like that. So honestly, I just worked really hard. And my family, um, we had like one college graduate and my family and my grandfather, but no one else had like pursued higher education at all. And so, you know, when I got into college, I had a big financial aid package due to like the situation my family was in. And then I also had merit scholarships on top of that that I applied for um in order to be able to like afford to go to school. Um and then I think in school, it was just I never really had like a disposable income. You know, I worked like a part-time job that did not pay, you know, it paid like minimum wage. I just kind of didn't save anything because I didn't have anything to save. And then this is kind of related, but my my grandmother passed away my senior year of college. And uh, she was the the main part of like my family structure that I was close to. It was, you know, it was kind of like losing my mother. And I felt like I was alone. I think I I got like a thousand dollars when she died, and that was like all the money that that I had. I didn't know what I was going to do, and I had like already applied to grad school and I got in, had to, you know, grad school is paid for, and they give you like a small cost of living stipend that would like pay for an apartment. And so I kind of did that like out of default because I wasn't like I didn't I didn't know if I could get a job or if I would like earn money and I was kind of just going through a lot emotionally. I I went to grad school and while I was there, it was the same thing. I did not have a disposable income to use, and I didn't have anyone externally in my family I could like rely on for money. And so um, yeah, occasionally unfortunately had to like borrow money from like friends or like a boyfriend. And uh when I finally got a real job, it was like, now I have all this money, let me pay off like my small amount of like debt I have. I don't need like a bigger apartment. I'm so used to living in this like small thing, you know. I just need a car that like gets me to and from work. I just never kind of had the that lifestyle bloat once I had more money. And so I really just did not want to end up in a situation like I grew up in or like my remaining family members were in, where they couldn't handle like if an emergency happened. I mean, I remember my grandmother crying if like the car broke down. Like, how are we gonna afford to, you know, pay for this? And I just knew I didn't want that for me. I didn't know that I was going to become like financially independent early. I just knew that I wanted to be able to like take care of myself and not have to constantly be worried about money. I think what you're used to living on so little, like it was easy to just avoid kind of kind of the bloat that that I saw like around me.

SPEAKER_02 18:27

That's really good that you didn't have that lifestyle create. Yeah. Incredible discipline. I've definitely seen it with um people in tech. And I I would say I'm probably guilty of that myself. It's so easy to just buy the the new tech, a better apartment, better car, like that kind of thing.

SPEAKER_00 18:45

Yeah. And I'm not gonna say like I never like went went without, you know, but like I definitely, you know, worked with like single people that may have been a year or two older than me that were like buying houses and buying like new cars and buying like all like designer clothing. And I mean, you know, I got like a nice apartment and like my car wasn't like crappy, but like I didn't have that desire to have that like next brand new thing or to like get the new phone like year after year. I just kind of became like happy with what I have and I I think I treated myself more with like travel than with like material, you know, material things.

SPEAKER_02 19:20

So yeah, yeah, that that's the value that you have. I really like that you sought after scholarships. Yeah. I I love that so much because you can't it allows you to do what you're good at without this so much of the stress of like having to work till exhaustion and then also study.

SPEAKER_00 19:44

Yeah. And I I mean I did work part-time, like in in college, um, as well as like part of you know, my my financial like aid package. Yeah, it was it was important for me to go to school. Uh again, I didn't i i it was just kind of drilled in my head that like debt was not good. We um my my family, like I said they didn't talk about finance. We also didn't really have credit cards or anything like that. Like everything was just paid in cash. So I wasn't really as used to like debt aside from like maybe a car loan or something like that. And I just did not want to I was scared of it, you know, like I was just nervous about the whole thing.

SPEAKER_02 20:21

Yeah, I noticed that. I also I think it's good. Um, you mentioned that we I'm not sure in the States with financial aid, do you still get a little bit of debt for your school?

SPEAKER_00 20:33

Yeah. So I as an undergrad, I I had to take out like a very, very minimal like bit of debt. And honestly, some of that was because I chose to live in a single room rather than like having a roommate, just because I had bad luck with a roommate my first year. So, you know, it was a but it was a very minimal amount of debt as an undergrad for me. And then in grad school, typically in the States, your grad school is funded. Like if you're going into like a PhD program, your schooling's paid for, and then depending on the program you're in, you get like a cost of living kind of stipended, which is probably enough to like be a roommate in an apartment and not not like a ton extra, but it's enough to kind of squeak by with.

SPEAKER_02 21:16

Yeah, for sure. I I also think that your peace of mind and like l not living with someone that's not aligned with you, it's probably worth it.

SPEAKER_00 21:26

Yeah, it was for me. It was it was just a much better kind of situation. So I I don't regret that part um at all. I I will just mention too, in the States, after my um, you know, after my grandmother died, and I didn't have any like external people like helping me in terms of like finances, because they would contribute like a very small amount. I'm talking like, you know, maybe like $200 a semester, just like a little bit of money. But I had a dean that I knew from some of my like uh activities in college, and they knew that my grandmother had died, and they actually talked to me about money and was I gonna be okay for like my next semester. Um, and they helped me apply for federal grants in the state so that that would be covered. So I would just I know it's like a really weird situation, but I would encourage people to to seek that sort of thing out too, because I didn't even know I was like eligible for a federal grant, being, you know, not having like an income. That wasn't something that I would have found out by myself.

SPEAKER_02 22:22

Really good to know. And I would say as well, it's it's good to encourage people to open up because sometimes when people when you open up about a problem, people give you these solutions that again to your point you don't even know that that's a thing.

SPEAKER_00 22:37

Yeah, no idea.

SPEAKER_02 22:39

Yeah, yeah. No, that's that's a really good reminder. And Jen, I'd love to, I guess, like you mentioned that you knew what kind of amount you needed. Yeah. And you automatically thought, I don't have to work until 65, 70. Most people don't really know that that's a thing, or even look at like their finances, do the maths. They're too afraid to quit like that job. Maybe it's an identity thing, but how how did you get to that thinking?

SPEAKER_00 23:11

I think honestly, it goes back to that initial meeting. With like the financial planner. So one of the things that he asked my husband and I to do before the meeting was just really strictly for one month, like, you know, look at what you're spending on everything. And we just kind of did that like transparently. And then that's kind of how it really hit me that like how much I was spending was so much less than like what I was kind of saving. And I didn't think right then about like retiring early, but I think the idea was more like, well, if I keep doing this, what am I gonna do with all of that money when I'm, you know, 65 years old? Like what am I gonna, you know, donate it all to a school or like a foundation, like what am I going to to do with it? And just I wasn't super like happy in my job. So I was kind of like backwards like thinking about, well, maybe I can like utilize some of this to enable myself to, I took a break first, you know. I mean, I went to college, I went to grad school, I started working in tech, I got burnt out, you know, 10 years in, I was like, I felt like I didn't even know if this is what I wanted to do anymore, you know, what I wanted to be when I grew up. I just like needed a break. And so I took a year off of work and having like my finances in order allowed me to do that. So I took a year off. I I quit my job. And uh I think that gave me like the push. Like I kind of figured out who I was without work. I figured out more about things I liked and types of I definitely like, I think this is a this is a pattern to me. I worked too much. I worked, I worked while I was at work, I worked when I was outside of work, I worked on weekends, I thought about like work all the time. And so taking a step back like really allowed me when I came back to my job to set better boundaries. So there was like Jen at work, and then there's like real life Jen who's like not doing work kind of all of the time. And uh that that like sort of self-discovery of who I was without my job, for me personally, I don't I don't know that I could have found without taking kind of time off because it's just caught in this like kind of wheel, wheel of everything. For me, it just it's just kind of how my brain worked, you know, it's always looking towards the next thing. So I really think that that that allowed me to realize that I had stuff outside of work and and I also took time to like establish just more hobbies like for myself. Work wasn't like my only thing. It's like I do this, but I work in tech.

SPEAKER_02 25:35

And I think that's also it touches on the job title as an identity. Yeah. And it's great that you took the time to discover that you know what, I just want to kind of get to know myself more. What do I even enjoy doing without work? Like, who is Jen or without the job title? Because a lot of people, especially now, obviously there's a lot of redundancies, layoffs, like forced to kind of like get you out of work. And people really struggle with like who is this person without their job? And yeah, I'm like thinking, I can think of so many things, but it takes it takes people a lot of time.

SPEAKER_00 26:14

Yeah, it does. Uh I would also just add for me, like I I was in a PhD program like in grad school that I actually um I took a leave of absence from to like start working in tech because I just wasn't sure like what I wanted to do. And so I still kind of had these inklagues in my head. Well, maybe Jen wants to go back to school. Like, maybe it's like Jen the professor and not, you know, Jen like the tech worker. And it's I think it's so rare that people take the time to like think that sort of thing through or even have the opportunity. Like you're constantly like needing to like earn more money and you're in the cycle of work. Like, when do you have time to like figure out that stuff? So I feel lucky that I was able to take a step back and to kind of figure it out.

SPEAKER_02 26:56

I completely agree. Most people get shocked that I've taken like a few years off just doing X, traveling to this. Like, not I think most of the time people have, especially women, a break when they're having kids, which is totally the opposite of a break. It's it's expensive work without pay. So people get shocked at like, oh, what do you mean? Like you just took like two, three years off to do this, and you didn't have kids at the time. And so, no, just wanted to do what I thought I wanted to do. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:31

Yeah. When I first like kind of announced at work, I gave so I talked this over like with my husband. We kind of had an agreement, like I'd I'd take a year off and then start it might be the same thing, but I'd start, you know, I'd I'd restart like working. And so I gave my job plenty of notice and everybody was kind of like surprised, you know. Oh, because I'm, you know, in my early 30s and they're like, what are you gonna do? You're just like not gonna work. And so that made me feel a little like awkward at first, too. But uh, I don't know. I just kind of said I was gonna travel and like left it at that. But I I left my job on really good terms. Like I gave them plenty of lead time and I left and I stayed in touch with people while I was gone off and on. Uh, so I I came back to essentially the same job like 13 months later. And I realized the career climate is like different now, but my, you know, they didn't hold a space for me. It was about like keeping up a little bit with your like networks, and it made it made it less scary to like be able to like come back, I think for me, like just keeping in touch with what what was going on. And so I I mean, I recommend it to like other people. Yeah, you'll see people post on like fiery femmes on Reddit about you know wanting to take a break and having the financial means to do so, but being like kind of scared to do it. And I understand the scariness, but like I'm a big proponent of do it. Like if you're feeling, you know, burnt out, if you're feeling like unsure and and you have the means to like take a little bit of time off, like that year I took off, it didn't impact when I was able to like later quit working. You know, it didn't have this like gigantic financial hit that I think some people might be worried about. I mean, I lost a year of salary, but I was able to like come back and like negotiate for a little bit of a higher salary and and kind of make up for it. But that was that was not my thought when I when I took a year off. It wasn't like, oh my gosh, I'm gonna like lose out on this pay and like not be able to retire early. Cause I still didn't know if I wanted to retire early. I think I think it's a little easier sometimes than people than people think. Like it doesn't have to be this big scary thing uh to do.

SPEAKER_02 29:32

Exactly. And uh such a huge proponent of that as well of like, you know, you can make a decision and it's gonna be okay. Like it's not such a big life-changing thing that you can't go back. Yeah. I was having this discussion with my husband, and I really wanted to move to Amsterdam. And he was like, you know, what what if we hate it? I'm like, so we move back. Yeah. I'm like, I don't if we hate month two, month three, if we hate it, we can go to Portugal, Lisbon, give it a try. If we really hate Europe, which I highly doubt we would, we can always go back to Australia. That's totally fine.

SPEAKER_00 30:10

Yeah, and like you never, you never know unless you unless you try it, you know. And I don't I don't like to look back at things and like regret. I mean, in terms of the work thing, like me taking a year off, let me work for another seven years. If I hadn't taken that year off, I would have totally burnt out much, much earlier than that. Like, you know, I just know, like I would have. And so you have to think about like the benefits that might come from it too, just clearing your head or getting a new environment, opening like new opportunities. Definitely.

SPEAKER_02 30:41

And also great to know that your partner, uh husband, is super supportive of that as well. How did you how did you know that you both have were on like the same like financial page or that you were aligned with that path?

SPEAKER_00 30:59

I think some of it came from like we I knew we both worked at the same company. So we obviously had some idea of like how much, you know, the other person was like making. And uh, you know, it wasn't a topic like early on, you know, with us with us dating at all. I think it just kind of developed like slowly over time. Like I saw the way that like he lived, you know, he he owned uh an apartment, you know, very like modest like apartment, like lived fairly modesty, modestly, but really prioritized like like travel. And I kind of knew I was already living like in a similar way, but we never shared like exact numbers with each other until probably, you know, a couple years like like into dating. I think that I don't it was just this weird coincidence where like we could kind of tell we were living the same sorts of of life. And uh it happened to like mesh in that way. And he was the first one that actually told me about like fire, even though I ended up like doing it first. But he's the one that that first mentioned it. You know, he was definitely a little more like investment savvy and like involved in finances than I was like from a younger age. Um, and traveling was uh not just traveling, but like living independently was really, you know, important to him. And so I think probably the first time it really came to like a big discussion was when when we were engaged, we I mean we talked about before, but when we were engaged, we uh, you know, bought a house and we got approved for a loan to buy a house. And the amount we got approved for was this, you know, really large, like, you know, number. And neither of us wanted like a house like that cost that much. You know, we didn't want like all of our income to be going towards that. And then I think that just kind of opened the floodgates to talk about like everything, you know, we um, and the whole like seeing people around us like, you know, buying like multi-million dollar homes, and you know, we're happy with like our, you know, smaller house like in this neighborhood, and we don't really need like the the next kind of biggest thing. So yeah, it wasn't something that was like just it just happened to mesh like in the right way. I don't know that that would ever happen with like another kind of set of people that happened to like just kind of mesh with us.

SPEAKER_02 33:07

Yeah, well, it sounds like you two were very compatible and you were clear on what was important to you and what you valued versus yeah, what everyone else was doing, which is super important.

SPEAKER_00 33:18

Yeah, I think that was that was it. And yeah, and we we had you know, once by the time again when we met with a plant, we had we had pure insight into like how much each other was like spending on stuff, how much we were how much we were saving. So I think even though that was really hard for me at first to be like open about like finances, it's what kind of you know led to like where I am today. Yeah, beautiful.

SPEAKER_02 33:39

And you mentioned earlier that you joined finances, but your retirement separate.

SPEAKER_00 33:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 33:45

Tell me about that, because I think there are a lot of especially with couples now, either like they live together and then get married and someone owns an asset, someone doesn't, like all that kind of thing. What were the considerations and the the actions that you took?

SPEAKER_00 34:00

Yeah, so early on, I'll just say this as background. Like early on, when I first moved in with him, I moved into like an apartment he owned. And so, you know, I paid like we negotiated what a rent would be. I paid, you know, like a rent and then like a portion of the utilities. And then it was like, you know, it was just like a standard like kind of like agreement. And then when we bought our house, you know, we were we were financially separate mostly, but we we had a joint account for like a shared, you know, like a shared checking and savings account. And uh, you know, we both put down the same amount, like as a down payment for our house. And then eventually that just became like this, like a kind of shared, shared money. Like uh, I don't feel like I'm explaining it right, but both of our paychecks went into like a joint checking and savings account. But my 401k and his 401k, you know, are totally separate, separate, like my RA and my other investments are totally separate, and so are his. And we didn't always put like numbers on those, we just like maxed out we were working like the most we could kind of like put in them. And then during times when we would get bonuses at work, like year-end bonuses, we would just split them both down the middle and each invest them how we wanted to invest them. So it really became kind of shared money just almost as soon as we got married and like and bought a house. Um there you go. But you know, I I know he has like retirement accounts, investment accounts, and obviously we have like transparency into like, you know, how much is like in them. But yeah, I don't have any problem with us like managing them separately as long as you know doing anything like dumb with them. And I think we're both like reasonable people, so it's it's not something I don't worry about how he's investing his money.

SPEAKER_02 35:37

Yeah, absolutely. Some people are have mentioned to me that they have that that their their accounts are super joined together, like as a couple, and I'm like, I I I would have anxiety with the fact that he would probably be thinking, why are these boots like a couple of hundred dollars just like blah blah blah, or like this makeup? I'm like, I don't I feel like I'm happy to contribute an amount and then like let me be with like my miscellaneous spends budgeted.

SPEAKER_00 36:08

Yeah, I think we ended up doing slightly the reverse. So we ended up each coming up with like kind of a personal budget for ourselves, and that's like the amount of money that like say I can spend like no questions asked, you know, per month. And we we like each had that money, and like early on when we were really, really focused on like getting our budget down, I think we both tracked it like a little more closely. Yeah, I didn't want to get I wanted like some I don't want to get a question about like why did you why did you buy the fancy boots? It's like well, it's my like chunk of budget, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 36:41

And I'd be like, look, there's a 10-year use of this boot. Yeah. Four dollars per wear, maybe less.

SPEAKER_00 36:49

Oh my gosh, that comes up with yeah, we joke about like the cosper, the cusp per wear, cosper use.

SPEAKER_02 36:54

It's it's a must. Um, my my negotiating tactic. Sometimes I like the more expensive couch. Just his story. We he really wanted to buy a couch, and I didn't really see the value of getting a new couch. I was like, why are we getting a new couch? It's another job to do, another thing to worry about, and then now we have to get rid of the old couch. I'm like, we don't need a new couch. Anyway, lo and behold, we went to the store. I think our couch at the time was like five years old. So I guess we can get a new one. So when we got into the store, and I was like, all these couches for me, they kind of look the same. He found this couch, and I'm like, it's okay. And I found the other couch that was really nice, but it was double the price. So I'm like, okay, he's definitely gonna say no with a price. And I had it to build my argument, and I calculate that I was like, okay, look, the other couch that we had was this much. We had it for five years, so it was basically 50 cents a day. This one, so pretty, so comfortable, it's huge. Yeah, it's like this much uh per day. So that's how I closed in. Yeah, that's a good tactic, though. I mean, it's you know, it's less than a cup of coffee, except a nicer couch. Yeah. Exactly. And Jen would love to, I guess I just move into the point where after you've had your one-year break and you came back to work, did you have that mentality of like, okay, now we're saving for retirement?

SPEAKER_00 38:25

No, not when I first came back. I don't think like I had that. I think probably sometime in that year we because I I quit. My husband was actually able to take like a sabbatical from work. So he was a little bit more senior than me. So he he could take some time off like without pay and and return to his position. So we both got got like got a taste of like what it would be like kind of we didn't work. And so I think that that's what probably put the inkling more, even more of the inkling in our head about okay, what does it take to like be able to actually like not work? So I would say maybe like a year into like working again. I was having a better time. I was still like enjoying it, but I knew I didn't want to do it like forever. And so I would say probably that's when we we didn't really have to change many of our habits, but that's when it was like, okay, like let's let's do what we can to like make this, you know, a reality. And I think probably the biggest change in that was just like analyzing bigger purchases more. Like at one point, I needed a new car. And so really just thinking about would will that impact, how does that like impact things and and doing what what you mentioned with the cat like what's the cost per year, you know, of like of doing this and how does it impact? So we have a lot of spreadsheets. We started having like a lot of spreadsheets, just you know, kind of tracking net worth and withdrawal rates and things like that. And yeah, I would say about then is where we got kind of kind of really more serious with it, and then probably another like double down once um once I actually like quit quit. I know it sounds weird to like not know before then, but when I when I actually like quit for real in like 2019, I felt like it was gonna be like definitely like I'm just leaving work. But my husband, I think, was a little like, oh, like maybe you should like go back in a year. So I think after after that was when we really got into like making sure that like we would be like okay uh in the long term and really being even safer with like what we were spending, you know, our money on.

SPEAKER_02 40:22

Got it. Perfect. And uh did you ever have like idle hands, or do you kind of already know what you were gonna do with your time when you stopped parking?

SPEAKER_00 40:35

So I had we had a big trip like planned that was like one thing, and it was like right before the holidays, and so I knew I would be like a little busy with that, but I didn't have like a big thing kind of planned. I think I thought like, okay, I'll figure it out once we get through like this holiday season and once we once we take like this break. I mean, I was still kind of toying around going back to school or like doing things like that, and then uh COVID happened and suddenly like the work, you know, work just changed like in general. I mean, everybody was like, you know, working from home and uh, you know, it's just a very different like environment. And so um I think during that time is when I started to I pick up comedy more. I think some of it was like probably coping with like what was happening, you know, in the in the world like around me. And I started doing a lot of comedy like online during that. And I was like, how can I how can I make this something even bigger? I mean, I had started doing it before I quit, but how do how do I make this bigger and like a bigger, you know, part part of my life? Um, and just kind of did everything I could do online until things started opening up like again, more in person. And we also did a cross-country move during um maybe in 2001. We moved across the country and we was at 2021. Yeah, 2021. Sorry, not 2001. I think we moved from the West Coast to the to the east coast, and some of it was just to be closer to family. My husband could still work from home. It was just to have like kind of a change um environment, and I think for us both to just figure out, you know, what things for us, you know, look like kind of moving forward. And I think with that, you know, I'm in a I'm in a city now that has a lot more opportunities for me to to do performances and to get involved with uh just the general like performing kind of community. And honestly, like I know it sounds small, but it takes up a lot of my time. Like I do, you know, I do write a lot on the side and and I wouldn't say it's like a career at all, but it it's like fulfilling. It's very fulfilling, you know, for me. And also just being able to like explore a new place and see family when I can and and travel. Yeah, that's beautiful.

SPEAKER_02 42:56

Definitely sounds like it fills your cup, it's something that makes you happy and you deserve it. You worked so hard.

SPEAKER_00 43:03

Thank you. Yeah, when I worked, I felt like I felt like I always had the struggle. This is even before I got a job. Um, you know, I was always like very good at like math and very good at like analytical type things, but I felt like I had this like creative part. I didn't know what to do with, you know, and I uh feel like I kind of like suppressed that like a lot when I was like working or maybe it would just come out a little bit with like friends, but I wasn't doing anything to kind of like nurture that kind of part of myself. So when I actually like left my job, it felt like just amazing to get to work this like different part of my brain and this other side of my like personality. And I I honestly like I feel like so much more confident and like comfortable like in myself now that like I feel like I I've used like both halves and I can use like both halves rather than like kind of being stuck in like a corner for sure.

SPEAKER_02 43:53

And it's so interesting because we've had many guests who said that same thing that they have this creative part that they would love to use more, but their day jobs are absolutely not that creative. Yeah, but uh yeah, they they have that creative side, they have side hobbies to fulfill that sometimes if they have the time or the mental capacity to do it. And there was one who she paints, and she's like, I'm just so in the flow and can just get so lost in the ability to create. I'm like, that's so beautiful. I think there's definitely a correlation with the amount of intensity of their work and that creativity flow.

SPEAKER_00 44:39

Yeah. And I have other friends that have, you know, moved on from like tech jobs that are painters, they're writers, they're directors, they're, you know, performing artists. And uh yeah, I think I think that happens to like a lot of people. It's like you don't have the mental energy to do everything you might want to do while you're working a full time, like demanding job. And this isn't I I mean, I feel like I had a good long career. I feel like I did well at my job, but when I started doing more performance and especially like narrow. Of storytelling. So just telling kind of personal stories to like an audience. Like I got paid for like a story like a few years ago. It was the first time I gotten paid for doing that. And that felt like the biggest accomplishment, like to me, like being able to like tell something that is like into myself, like in a way. So that like someone is giving me money to like do this. It it just like filled me in a in a way that like my professional career like didn't quite kind of hit. Yeah. So that's absolutely well, I guess.

SPEAKER_02 45:45

Yeah. I'm definitely gonna look into that. And yes, absolutely. It's so it's it's crazy because the flow, it's so for those who don't know what the flow is, because apparently there are people who don't, yeah, it's that work that absolutely does not feel like work. Yeah. That you can just do for free. It just so happens that people value it and you get paid. But if you can find your flow or the job that makes it feel like you're not working, that's that's the key, I would say.

SPEAKER_00 46:16

Yeah, definitely. I I think, you know, it's hard to find time to find what that is, you know, as you're establishing yourself in a in a career. You know, there's there's people, I know you've probably met people in your life from a very young age, like they know what they want to be, they know what they want to do, like they're very comfortable like in themselves and in their in their job. And I feel like they're so they're so lucky, but there's still time in your life to find what that is, you know, for you.

SPEAKER_02 46:39

I so agree because there were people in my high school who knew that they wanted to be doctors, like yeah, dumb. And I was like, I don't even know what I like, I don't know. I've changed careers a few times. And yeah, so I always said that whoever knew what they wanted to be, whether they wanted to be an accountant, a physicist, a doctor, or a teacher from that young age, I think that's such a gift because you're just happy. You know the direction that you need to go. You have that clarity.

SPEAKER_00 47:10

Yeah. And I think for people that like like me, or maybe people you that that like don't have that from a young age, it's important to like keep, you know, a little bit of an open mind, like while you kind of figure out like what that thing might be. Because it might surprise you. It might be something you would have like, oh, I'll never do that. And that, you know, it is your flow. Yeah, definitely.

SPEAKER_02 47:30

Well, I wanted to ask you as we're wrapping up um our session. You have been in tech for a while and you've seen the changes, right? What advice would you give to 20-year-olds today?

SPEAKER_00 47:43

Uh, don't be scared. Like everybody was the person in the room that didn't know everything, you know, at one point. And it doesn't mean you have to be like a know it all, but like take in everything that you can, you know, like utilize all the resources that are given to you. Like, I know my company had like mentoring and like these other like classes and things that I mentioned. Like, I think just seek out those those opportunities. They don't always present themselves to you, like you might have to talk, but just open yourself up to like new experiences and like understand that everybody was there once. There you go. And I find that people want to help in general. Yeah, they totally do. I got involved in mentoring when I worked. I had a mentor during most of my career. People are happy, the bulk of people are like happy, happy to help and and want to see you succeed. And they have such wisdom that like you, you know, you don't have yet. So use them.

SPEAKER_02 48:39

There you go. And Jen, I'd love to also ask, what's one thing you would stop telling young women in tech? What is stopped telling?

SPEAKER_00 48:47

Gosh, it's almost the reverse that I just said, but like I think for women, it can be hard to be like aggressive and not be labeled with a negative connotation. I remember like hearing this story like a really long time ago. I'm probably gonna like, you know, misdo it. But it's like, oh, this little boy like bossing people around on the playground, and someone's like, oh, he's gonna be like a CEO one day. And like if a girl does the same thing, like it's like, oh, she's like, you know, like a B word, you know, good. I mean, that's an anecdote that people will say. And I think just realizing that like being aggressive or present or like talking a lot in the workplace doesn't mean that you're gonna be labeled like in a negative, a negative way. Like you have just as much right to be there as the guys do. And so don't like make yourself smaller to like make people, I don't know, like kind of not bow to you, but you know what I mean? Like make people like kind of cater, like you can still be like a big person and and have like a positive impact, if that makes sense.

SPEAKER_02 49:46

Yeah, I I definitely can see that uh people if if it if a woman is opinionated, dominating, they're yeah they'd like say, she's a piece of work, she can be tough. Whereas if it is definitely a guy, they would be like, Oh, he he's so strict, he's very stringent on X, Y, Z, like we gotta do a good job.

SPEAKER_00 50:08

Like, yeah, yeah. So I think the positive part of that, going back to like what I would recommend people doing, like if you're a woman starting in tech, seek out female mentors, like look at the women, you know, around you that are doing a good job or that have been at at their job for like a long time and seek out those people like like for advice. Like it's not a bad thing to be like an aggressive woman or to be an opinionated woman or to be outspoken.

SPEAKER_02 50:34

I agree. And especially to those who have parents who weren't in the corporate world. Yeah. Um, and they didn't have that guidance to know how to deal with the corporate world, politics and stuff, seek out those mentorships early on a hundred percent.

SPEAKER_00 50:51

Yeah, and I think just circling back to one of the first things we talked about. I mean, uh, this is just a quick story about me. I think when I started grad school, we had to take the seminar and basically it was every week, and we'd have to read a paper, and then we sit around the room and we'd like analyze the paper, like, look for mistakes or talk about what went well. And for the longest time, I never talked in that room because I felt like, wow, you know, an expert wrote this paper. Like they they knew what they were talking about. And like, who am I to question what they wrote? Like, I'm just, you know, a first-year like grad student. So being able to like get over, you know, those hurdles is like so important, but also like hard, hard, hard to do. You know, know that your voice has power and it has has meaning and people do, you know, care what you think, even if you're not like the expert. You still, you know, you were hired because they saw promise in you and they, you know, felt like you were gonna do a job, good job. Like they value your opinion. So it's it's good to share it. Absolutely, absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 51:49

Well, Jen, I appreciate your time and your openness to sharing your experience and your insights uh on how you got into your scholarships, the opportunity to work in tech, and the time to realize when uh your fire date is. That's amazing. Thank you so much for your time. Yeah, sure. Thank you for having me.

SPEAKER_01 52:13

Thank you for listening to another episode of Fiery Fems. If this resonated, share it with a woman in your life because we rise higher when we rise together. Don't forget to follow and review. It helps more women access the tools and conversations that build wealth and confidence. For more career and financial empowerment, come hang out on Instagram and YouTube at FieryFems. I'll see you in the next episode.